not all functionality is available as-is. You need to install a cloud connected app.
a cloud connection is not per se one direction. It is more than possible, the people operating this cloud (for Bosch) have the means (read: api) to connect back into your network via the hardware.
As long as the firmware of the dishwasher isn’t audited by third parties (or even better: open source), who knows what it is able to do in your network?
And all of this is not necessary, before the cloud, dishwashers worked fine too.
Dishwashers worked fine as electromechanical devices too. This is all fucking nuts. Mine blew up recently (electromechanical and probably 30 at this point) and I’ll be replacing it with one a family member no longer needs. When it gives up the ghost and if I’ve cleared some garage space by then, I’m minded to take it apart and see how hard it is to reverse engineer the damn thing.
The one way issue is very easily solved (isolated network), and on my model at least, all functionality is available. The app gives more, but everything I need is available on the buttons if I need it.
I’m glad you enjoy your home connect. A dishwasher shouldn’t need an internet connection to function. Period. Full stop.
“Just put it on an isolated network” is ridiculous advice, when there shouldn’t even be a need.
Even if you assume there are no vulnerabilities to find, even if you assume their administrators are never evil, the only reason to require cloud service is to invade my privacy and collect data.
That’s it. They’re selling your data. Maybe you are fine with that. We are not.
My dishwasher is completely fine without the cloud. Period. Full stop.
There is no need to put it on the network, but if you want to, and are paranoid, you can connect it to an isolated network. If you dont want to, dont, and the dishwasher will work.
There are valid use cases for the networking, beyond data collection, if you dont like it, dont use it. I do like it, and I’d rather support companies that do provide first party homeassistant support.
No one called you any names. They said your advice is ridiculous, but that’s not name calling. That’s critiquing.
They’re not using your dishwasher for your needs, they’re using their dishwasher for their needs. They likely don’t overlap. Different models have different feature sets. One can say that they should have done more research into the home networking requirements for super basic features (as heavily explained in the article that we’re all commenting on, and you seem to have completely ignored), but frankly that’s beside the point. The baseline should not be well below par. The baseline should not be “download our potential spyware that also doesn’t necessarily work very well with your system just so you can use basic features”.
I’m glad you like smart features. I think people should have that kind of flexibility and choice in their home environment. The problem here is that when using this particular appliance, they don’t have that choice. That is a problem. Even if, when you use your appliance, you don’t have that issue, they do. Because they are not you, and do not have the exact same use case that you do.
I still think its unnecessarily rude to call someone’s opinion/experience “pathetic”.
The rest, I absolutely agree with. Its not a Bosch problem, its that specific model of dishwasher for that specific user problem. If I were in their situation, I would return the dishwasher.
My dishwasher is completely fine without the cloud. Period. Full stop.
OP reports loss of functionality. Functions, that are, quite frankly standard features on all not-IoT machines. Functionality which, frankly, you paid for, and which in no way actually require homecontrol to use.
There is no need to put it on the network, but if you want to, and are paranoid, you can connect it to an isolated network. If you dont want to, dont, and the dishwasher will work.
only if you find it acceptable to not have full functionality. “you can put it on an isolated network”… is very much like “let them eat cake.”
Particularly if you consider the trend to force this in all sorts of things- ranging from toasters, refridgerators, ovens, stovetops, coffee makers, etc. Inorder to adequately protect mimizie the risks associated with these devices, you’d have to have a dedicated network for each one.
and yes, the reason they’re forcing you to use the home control app to get these features is to intrude into your privacy.
Notifications aside, none of the functions it enables require internet access, or even network access. There’s exactly zero reason to put it on the network. And as for notifications, I don’t know anyone that’s going to rush home or stop what they’re doing to put dishes away the moment the machine is finished cleaning them. is it possible you’re an exception to that? sure. I guess. but the vast majority of people- in my experience- won’t be finding anything that actually requires internet for to be all that useful.
Which- in case there was any confusion- is why they shut off functions people use all the time. To force people to use their app. Which, if they weren’t some how making money off that app, ask yourself why they’d care?
They’re making money off the app. which suggests they’re selling something they get from the app. (I suppose they could be using your IoT devices to mine crypto when you’re not using it… but that’s got it’s own issues.)
The feature removal is nuanced thing worthy of more discussion.
If Bosch had sold the dishwasher with a rinse button, and then disabled it via a firmware patch, I would be pissed as well.
If Bosch are advertising a cloud only featured without making it clear its cloud only, also pissed.
But Bosch shipping a dishwasher without a rinse button, that is less clear. Not all offline dishwashers have a rinse (I had an IKEA without a rinse cycle), so whether it is a standard feature or not is open for debate. It could be as simple as Bosch deciding to prioritise a difference cycle button instead?
Features being removed from products is unfortunately nothing new, in all industries there are numerous examples, the only difference here is that with their app, Bosch can add it back in.
Remote start is the main reason for having it networked. They also advertise it with home assistant/homekit/googlehome/alexa connectivity, which isnt for everyone, but for some, that is a sellable feature. So its not necessarily true that the app directly makes money, it could simply be a feature that helps sell more machines.
Bosch are EU based, so any collected data should be protected by GDPR, although Im not EU, so they could be screwing me if they want. (I am also not a gdpr lawyer, so correct me if i am wrong here). I’d trust Bosch a lot more than a Chinese/US manufacturer, but I isolate it out of an abundance of paranoia.
If Bosch had sold the dishwasher with a rinse button, and then disabled it via a firmware patch, I would be pissed as well.
When Bosch disables old Home Connect users in 15 years, that’s exactly what will happen.
so they could be screwing me if they want.
They are screwing you. There was no reason for them to spend development money and servers that require constant money for maintenance to disable features on your dishwasher if there wasn’t profit.
Removing buttons definitely sucks. In my case, its a built in dishwasher, so space is already limited for buttons, and all the ones I need are there. So the cloud is 100% value add. I’d hate it as well if the app was my only choice for a feature.
But as I already explained, that’s not true. They gave you the illusion of value add by removing features. Look at your exact model, built in, from 3 years ago. It has buttons for half load, delay and delicate. It’s easier to push a button than find your phone and start the app. If your Internet is temporarily down, you don’t have those features.
If the app was used for additional features, I’d agree. But they removed features to give the illusion of value add.
I think its a matter of perspective though. I have all the physical buttons I need, and even ones I dont need, so im happy. For you, yours doesn’t have all the functions you need, so obviously your not happy.
Both versions have delay, but I did lose half load and delicate. Gained some other programs though, but those aren’t useful. Funnily enough, neither version has a dedicated rinse.
Series 6 Integrated incase anyone else is interested:
The point here is:
You might take a good look at this work.
As long as the firmware of the dishwasher isn’t audited by third parties (or even better: open source), who knows what it is able to do in your network?
And all of this is not necessary, before the cloud, dishwashers worked fine too.
Dishwashers worked fine as electromechanical devices too. This is all fucking nuts. Mine blew up recently (electromechanical and probably 30 at this point) and I’ll be replacing it with one a family member no longer needs. When it gives up the ghost and if I’ve cleared some garage space by then, I’m minded to take it apart and see how hard it is to reverse engineer the damn thing.
The one way issue is very easily solved (isolated network), and on my model at least, all functionality is available. The app gives more, but everything I need is available on the buttons if I need it.
This is pathetic.
I’m glad you enjoy your home connect. A dishwasher shouldn’t need an internet connection to function. Period. Full stop.
“Just put it on an isolated network” is ridiculous advice, when there shouldn’t even be a need.
Even if you assume there are no vulnerabilities to find, even if you assume their administrators are never evil, the only reason to require cloud service is to invade my privacy and collect data.
That’s it. They’re selling your data. Maybe you are fine with that. We are not.
No need for name calling.
My dishwasher is completely fine without the cloud. Period. Full stop.
There is no need to put it on the network, but if you want to, and are paranoid, you can connect it to an isolated network. If you dont want to, dont, and the dishwasher will work.
There are valid use cases for the networking, beyond data collection, if you dont like it, dont use it. I do like it, and I’d rather support companies that do provide first party homeassistant support.
No one called you any names. They said your advice is ridiculous, but that’s not name calling. That’s critiquing.
They’re not using your dishwasher for your needs, they’re using their dishwasher for their needs. They likely don’t overlap. Different models have different feature sets. One can say that they should have done more research into the home networking requirements for super basic features (as heavily explained in the article that we’re all commenting on, and you seem to have completely ignored), but frankly that’s beside the point. The baseline should not be well below par. The baseline should not be “download our potential spyware that also doesn’t necessarily work very well with your system just so you can use basic features”.
I’m glad you like smart features. I think people should have that kind of flexibility and choice in their home environment. The problem here is that when using this particular appliance, they don’t have that choice. That is a problem. Even if, when you use your appliance, you don’t have that issue, they do. Because they are not you, and do not have the exact same use case that you do.
I still think its unnecessarily rude to call someone’s opinion/experience “pathetic”.
The rest, I absolutely agree with. Its not a Bosch problem, its that specific model of dishwasher for that specific user problem. If I were in their situation, I would return the dishwasher.
OP reports loss of functionality. Functions, that are, quite frankly standard features on all not-IoT machines. Functionality which, frankly, you paid for, and which in no way actually require homecontrol to use.
only if you find it acceptable to not have full functionality. “you can put it on an isolated network”… is very much like “let them eat cake.”
Particularly if you consider the trend to force this in all sorts of things- ranging from toasters, refridgerators, ovens, stovetops, coffee makers, etc. Inorder to adequately protect mimizie the risks associated with these devices, you’d have to have a dedicated network for each one.
and yes, the reason they’re forcing you to use the home control app to get these features is to intrude into your privacy.
Notifications aside, none of the functions it enables require internet access, or even network access. There’s exactly zero reason to put it on the network. And as for notifications, I don’t know anyone that’s going to rush home or stop what they’re doing to put dishes away the moment the machine is finished cleaning them. is it possible you’re an exception to that? sure. I guess. but the vast majority of people- in my experience- won’t be finding anything that actually requires internet for to be all that useful.
Which- in case there was any confusion- is why they shut off functions people use all the time. To force people to use their app. Which, if they weren’t some how making money off that app, ask yourself why they’d care?
They’re making money off the app. which suggests they’re selling something they get from the app. (I suppose they could be using your IoT devices to mine crypto when you’re not using it… but that’s got it’s own issues.)
The feature removal is nuanced thing worthy of more discussion. If Bosch had sold the dishwasher with a rinse button, and then disabled it via a firmware patch, I would be pissed as well. If Bosch are advertising a cloud only featured without making it clear its cloud only, also pissed. But Bosch shipping a dishwasher without a rinse button, that is less clear. Not all offline dishwashers have a rinse (I had an IKEA without a rinse cycle), so whether it is a standard feature or not is open for debate. It could be as simple as Bosch deciding to prioritise a difference cycle button instead? Features being removed from products is unfortunately nothing new, in all industries there are numerous examples, the only difference here is that with their app, Bosch can add it back in.
Remote start is the main reason for having it networked. They also advertise it with home assistant/homekit/googlehome/alexa connectivity, which isnt for everyone, but for some, that is a sellable feature. So its not necessarily true that the app directly makes money, it could simply be a feature that helps sell more machines.
Bosch are EU based, so any collected data should be protected by GDPR, although Im not EU, so they could be screwing me if they want. (I am also not a gdpr lawyer, so correct me if i am wrong here). I’d trust Bosch a lot more than a Chinese/US manufacturer, but I isolate it out of an abundance of paranoia.
When Bosch disables old Home Connect users in 15 years, that’s exactly what will happen.
They are screwing you. There was no reason for them to spend development money and servers that require constant money for maintenance to disable features on your dishwasher if there wasn’t profit.
Even in my very high end Bosch ($1800 one), they removed buttons from their older version and put it into their revenue extraction cloud.
The exact same model from the previous year had a “half load button”. The new one requires you to register with their cloud service and use the app.
So the app only appears to give more because they removed features from the previous version.
Removing buttons definitely sucks. In my case, its a built in dishwasher, so space is already limited for buttons, and all the ones I need are there. So the cloud is 100% value add. I’d hate it as well if the app was my only choice for a feature.
But as I already explained, that’s not true. They gave you the illusion of value add by removing features. Look at your exact model, built in, from 3 years ago. It has buttons for half load, delay and delicate. It’s easier to push a button than find your phone and start the app. If your Internet is temporarily down, you don’t have those features.
If the app was used for additional features, I’d agree. But they removed features to give the illusion of value add.
I think its a matter of perspective though. I have all the physical buttons I need, and even ones I dont need, so im happy. For you, yours doesn’t have all the functions you need, so obviously your not happy.
Both versions have delay, but I did lose half load and delicate. Gained some other programs though, but those aren’t useful. Funnily enough, neither version has a dedicated rinse.
Series 6 Integrated incase anyone else is interested: