So many comments echoing “women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!”
I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that’s the message you took. It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.” Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you’re not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you’re reducing women’s feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.
The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.
There are definitely a few (almost certainly a vocal minority) women who do say that - to never approach a woman under any circumstances. They’re the extreme ones, for sure, but we can’t ignore that they exist. Not in an age where everyone has a platform and the extreme positions get clicks.
Another example is the explosion of the manosphere shit. You get one dbag like Tate spreading shit that looks like self help for men. They get popular based on these ideas that seem okay on the surface, but they’re really just manipulative, shady, outright illegal, etc. but because they’re extreme views, that promise results, and that the target audience really wants to hear, now you can’t go anywhere without seeing red/blue pill shit.
Circling back, all it takes is a few people saying and repeating “no approaching women in public EVER” and it spreads. Frustrated women repeat it (not even being literal), more men and women see it, engage with it because it’s polarizing, and it grows. It’s absolutely not hard to imagine that a lot of men truly believe that most women don’t want to be approached ever.
I totally get that, but I just feel we have to do our part to stop pushing that narrative or at least explain it. It’s not like men are stupid by default and can’t be trusted in the public. It should have been an “FYI” mind of thing, instead of a decree.
Correct, men are not stupid by default. And yet there is still a very vocal subset of the population that shouts that at every opportunity.
It rarely matters what is actually true. We don’t form our opinions of ourselves based on any objective truth. We form them based on what behaviors get reinforced and what behaviors get punished. Regardless of the truth, if the most prominent messaging coming in is “you’re bad just because you were born a male” then you’ll start to believe it.
I get the feeling that the best interpretation of your message is that you’re denying that statement, the “all men are bad” statement. And that’s a good thing. We need more people saying “not all men are bad” - but we have to do it in a way that acknowledges why people feel that way. It does no good to say “no one is saying don’t approach people ever” when at least a few very loud, very aggressive voices ARE saying that, enough to drown out the majority population with reasonable intentions.
It’s not like men are stupid by default and can’t be trusted in public
Have absolutely heard this verbatim from women in my group chats. Sometimes it’s nice to not be considered a guy because I present v femme, but when the dogpiling starts and I kinda just have to hold my tongue it really sucks to see my friends look at all men as wild beasts.
I told this story on here before, but it’s relevant.
One day, I was walking around my city with a couple of friends, another guy (M) and a girl (J). We worked together for a while, all generally got along well, killing some time before J had a tattoo appointment. As we’re walking around, we find some stickers covering a light pole, including a pretty new “Yes, all men” sticker. J takes a photo of it and starts posting it on Instagram.
Cue a pretty in-depth discussion. I was pretty hurt. Here I was, hanging with a woman who was actively spreading the very narrative we’re talking about now. Fortunately, I don’t tend to keep company with people I can’t chat with about important topics, so I was able to actually explain why, while I get the actual intent of the message, the relevance in the current climate, but also why it’s very damaging to everyone in society.
I think about that event a fair bit. It’s emblematic of how polarizing the discussions have to be to gain momentum. It has to be all or nothing, or you don’t get to build the message. It’s in every aspect of life now. Dating, Politics, religion, online discourse… If you’re not at the extreme end, buy in fully, then you’re at best ignorant and at worst a false flag.
It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.”
Yes. I’m amazed so many people are missing this. I’ve dated a lot of women. And when I’ve asked someone out and it didn’t work out, ya shrug, laugh it off and move on. It’s not THAT personal. I’ve turned down others too. It’s the same thing. Some people click with you, some done. Lemmy users seem to take a rejection way too personally.
Why does it have to be men doing the asking? Maybe it’s the 'tism talking but I tend to be very onboard for the whole equity and equality stuff especially in a relationship. I have never understood why people feel so strongly about gendered roles or activities. Despite being functional in pretty much all traditionally gendered skills (in both directions), I haven’t really ever encountered someone that takes it as seriously.
Of the women I have dated that have been the most vocal about equity and DEI when I point out that they tend to all back to traditional gender roles when it’s to their advantage they have all essentially ended up saying that it is just their personal preference. Well no shit. I’m sure there are plenty of men who would prefer to be able to have all of the housework done by their partner, or billionaires that don’t want to give up any of their money even if they talk about wealth inequality. Just because it’s a preference doesn’t mean it’s OK.
Men don’t have to be the ones asking, but I was responding to the idea that men can’t approach women by default. Either gender can shoot their shot.
And those women can have a preference for a more “traditional” role, it just means they need to be aware that not every guy they meet is going to be cool with that and that may mean making a choice down the line. The idea is that two people are in a relationship that works for them and everyone is safe and respected. So, yes, it’s okay for people to have that preference. The issue is forcing your preference to be the standard.
The issue with the women I have met in my example is that they only want the advantages of the traditional without the negatives. They want the emotional and labor and physical chores to be shared equally, but they don’t want to be responsible for initiating or pursuing. Nor do they have any interest in learning how to do basic things with tools and would rather their partner deal with it.
If we aren’t going to give a misogynist a pass because they don’t want to give up what they have for equality because that’s just his preference, then I don’t think it’s fair to give anyone else a pass when applying the same logic.
So many comments echoing “women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!”
I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that’s the message you took. It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.” Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you’re not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you’re reducing women’s feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.
The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.
There are definitely a few (almost certainly a vocal minority) women who do say that - to never approach a woman under any circumstances. They’re the extreme ones, for sure, but we can’t ignore that they exist. Not in an age where everyone has a platform and the extreme positions get clicks.
Another example is the explosion of the manosphere shit. You get one dbag like Tate spreading shit that looks like self help for men. They get popular based on these ideas that seem okay on the surface, but they’re really just manipulative, shady, outright illegal, etc. but because they’re extreme views, that promise results, and that the target audience really wants to hear, now you can’t go anywhere without seeing red/blue pill shit.
Circling back, all it takes is a few people saying and repeating “no approaching women in public EVER” and it spreads. Frustrated women repeat it (not even being literal), more men and women see it, engage with it because it’s polarizing, and it grows. It’s absolutely not hard to imagine that a lot of men truly believe that most women don’t want to be approached ever.
I totally get that, but I just feel we have to do our part to stop pushing that narrative or at least explain it. It’s not like men are stupid by default and can’t be trusted in the public. It should have been an “FYI” mind of thing, instead of a decree.
Correct, men are not stupid by default. And yet there is still a very vocal subset of the population that shouts that at every opportunity.
It rarely matters what is actually true. We don’t form our opinions of ourselves based on any objective truth. We form them based on what behaviors get reinforced and what behaviors get punished. Regardless of the truth, if the most prominent messaging coming in is “you’re bad just because you were born a male” then you’ll start to believe it.
I get the feeling that the best interpretation of your message is that you’re denying that statement, the “all men are bad” statement. And that’s a good thing. We need more people saying “not all men are bad” - but we have to do it in a way that acknowledges why people feel that way. It does no good to say “no one is saying don’t approach people ever” when at least a few very loud, very aggressive voices ARE saying that, enough to drown out the majority population with reasonable intentions.
Have absolutely heard this verbatim from women in my group chats. Sometimes it’s nice to not be considered a guy because I present v femme, but when the dogpiling starts and I kinda just have to hold my tongue it really sucks to see my friends look at all men as wild beasts.
I told this story on here before, but it’s relevant.
One day, I was walking around my city with a couple of friends, another guy (M) and a girl (J). We worked together for a while, all generally got along well, killing some time before J had a tattoo appointment. As we’re walking around, we find some stickers covering a light pole, including a pretty new “Yes, all men” sticker. J takes a photo of it and starts posting it on Instagram.
Cue a pretty in-depth discussion. I was pretty hurt. Here I was, hanging with a woman who was actively spreading the very narrative we’re talking about now. Fortunately, I don’t tend to keep company with people I can’t chat with about important topics, so I was able to actually explain why, while I get the actual intent of the message, the relevance in the current climate, but also why it’s very damaging to everyone in society.
I think about that event a fair bit. It’s emblematic of how polarizing the discussions have to be to gain momentum. It has to be all or nothing, or you don’t get to build the message. It’s in every aspect of life now. Dating, Politics, religion, online discourse… If you’re not at the extreme end, buy in fully, then you’re at best ignorant and at worst a false flag.
Yes. I’m amazed so many people are missing this. I’ve dated a lot of women. And when I’ve asked someone out and it didn’t work out, ya shrug, laugh it off and move on. It’s not THAT personal. I’ve turned down others too. It’s the same thing. Some people click with you, some done. Lemmy users seem to take a rejection way too personally.
Why does it have to be men doing the asking? Maybe it’s the 'tism talking but I tend to be very onboard for the whole equity and equality stuff especially in a relationship. I have never understood why people feel so strongly about gendered roles or activities. Despite being functional in pretty much all traditionally gendered skills (in both directions), I haven’t really ever encountered someone that takes it as seriously.
Of the women I have dated that have been the most vocal about equity and DEI when I point out that they tend to all back to traditional gender roles when it’s to their advantage they have all essentially ended up saying that it is just their personal preference. Well no shit. I’m sure there are plenty of men who would prefer to be able to have all of the housework done by their partner, or billionaires that don’t want to give up any of their money even if they talk about wealth inequality. Just because it’s a preference doesn’t mean it’s OK.
Men don’t have to be the ones asking, but I was responding to the idea that men can’t approach women by default. Either gender can shoot their shot.
And those women can have a preference for a more “traditional” role, it just means they need to be aware that not every guy they meet is going to be cool with that and that may mean making a choice down the line. The idea is that two people are in a relationship that works for them and everyone is safe and respected. So, yes, it’s okay for people to have that preference. The issue is forcing your preference to be the standard.
The issue with the women I have met in my example is that they only want the advantages of the traditional without the negatives. They want the emotional and labor and physical chores to be shared equally, but they don’t want to be responsible for initiating or pursuing. Nor do they have any interest in learning how to do basic things with tools and would rather their partner deal with it.
If we aren’t going to give a misogynist a pass because they don’t want to give up what they have for equality because that’s just his preference, then I don’t think it’s fair to give anyone else a pass when applying the same logic.
I don’t know man, it sounds like you follow rule 1 and 2 and don’t realize it.
fuck em. let em figure it out. this is no time for weakness.