I would love to come across one of the voters that voted for the orange fascist because they thought Kamala would be worse for the Palestines somewhere in the wild. It would be incredible to see if they still feel strongly about it now.
Most just abstained, voters who actually switched sides don’t exist imo. If you voted trump last election, you never would have voted kamala even if she actually tried to win.
That being said, I can’t really blame people for drawing the line at genocide of all things. The dems thought they had an easy win so they decided to represent genocide instead of us, the voters. I still voted for them regardless but it felt altogether gross. It shouldn’t feel that way, they are supposed to be the good ones.
I don’t think we should condone the behavior by pivoting the blame to voters, who are just trying to be heard since clearly the democratic party has stopped listening.
I didn’t vote for Trump but let’s not pretend that Harris was going to stop it as she didn’t distance herself from Biden on this issue. Biden had 15 months and he didn’t, not even symbolically at the UN choosing to veto ceasefire, vote against Palestinian right to self determination and continue sending Israel weapons.
I agree that Trump is worse overall, but Harris would have still continued what Biden was doing and would have allowed the genocide to continue. By the end of Biden’s term 80% of Gaza was already destroyed, over 40,000 killed and Blinken at least once suggested removing the Palestinians from Gaza to Egypt and Jordan on his meeting with Arab leaders. It was covered in Arabic media but you may have missed it. Trump didn’t come up with anything new, he is just more unabashed and crude about it.
Now I am not saying that what Biden had done or what Kamala would have done would have been or was enough, but equating Trump with those two shows the lack of understanding of them trying to pressure a long time ally without completely acting to tear up that historical friendship between the two countries. Do you have a source for those numbers btw, a found few articles but most show way less then that so I am curious where you got those numbers.
Further protests and continued outcry, better to chance to have had a change in the stance under a democratic administration. Could you tell me under the current administration one if there is a good chance of being arrested or deported by simply protesting and voicing support for the Palestinians?
If the Democratic Party was willing to ignore the demands and protests of their own voter base, at the cost of their votes, during the most critical election against overt Fascism, why would they be willing to listen after? They had the opportunity to listen to the protests and demands of their constituents and act accordingly, an opportunity that would have vastly improved their chances of winning the election, but chose not too.
Thousands of pro-palestinian protestors were arrested under Biden. Let’s not pretend Trump is of course worse in both of these aspects, but we don’t have to ignore how Biden set the stage. The bills to legally brand pro-palestinian protestors as anti-semitic and pull tax exempt status for organizations like JVP for being “pro-terrorism” without evidence were also started under and supported by Biden. The Democratic Campaign was by no means a genuine opposition. I still voted for them for the same reasons I’m sure you did, but still.
Exactly, I am not saying the democratic party was great at it. My point is the protests were still allowed to happen though as in my mind arrests essentially still allowed protests to occur, deportations though are a different matter. You ask any proper activist about how many times they have been arrested for protesting, they typically wear it like a badge of honour. Deportation though is another matter. So I still stand firm that there would have been a greater chance for a better outcome under a Democratic administration.
Post about israel stating they will exterminate Palestinians
You: it’s because of leftists and muslims and communists and santa maybe batman too.
Way to subtly change the subject and optics.
Why don’t you focus on the fact that the United States is currently aiding and supporting a genocide that has been unfolding for the last 70 years? I’m not american and I would have voted for Harris if I was one, but you are disgraceful for using minorities like tokens you can use and throw as you please, I’m quite certain that even if all of them voted for Harris, trump would still have been elected due to your f***** up gerrymandering policy. Putting the blame on hundreds of thousands and not on the millions of apolitical voters is MAGA level nonsense.
Please point out where in my post I said that their vote would have even caused a flip in the election results, there was a group that withheld their vote in protest (not the ones that simply did not vote). So I will say there is no evidence I can produce that they voted for Trump, but the chance of none existing is not zero either. So yes I would like to talk to one of those voters or non-voters in protest to better understand why they initially thought a withholding of their vote in the first place when the worse option was clearly the other option should the election go one way in light of the current votes.
Understanding what went wrong at all levels, and those protesting and withholding their votes was part of that issue. So cannot and should not be ignored if we are to learn from this for the future.
I’m sorry but in this context, under this specific post, you do not seem genuine or honest from my POV, if you are truly interested in my opinion you will find it in this thread.
What else is there to say if not than the democrats have pushed for the ostracism of their own base to pander to their donors, failed to reach a majority of the population due to a baseless political program…?
Keep on poking, acting all virtuous, and generalizing the minority yet most activist part of your voter base… I mean wake me up when the democrats do the next protest, I wouldn’t want to miss such a rare occurrence, and oh my… The cardboard are so creative…
Edit: If your first instinct about Israel officially announcing they will ethnically cleanse people was to ask a non question about why 1% of the american may have withhold their vote because of the Palestinian Genocide… Yet not considering Roe vs Wades, the hundreds of massacres sponsored by the US, the non action against the corrupted media owned by American Oligarchs and the corrupted and criminal enterprise which is the MAGA Movement than what went wrong in your thought process…
The only real difference is Harris would have voiced disapproval rather than approval. Netanyahu seems pretty adamant about following this course. I doubt any conservative president would be able to stop it.
I have no idea what you’re on about vis a vis voted for Trump believing he’d be better for Palestine. A minority people refused to vote Kamala because of her open support of genocide, but that doesn’t mean they voted for Trump.
In either case, why is it their fault and not the fault of the democratic establishment exactly? Shouldn’t your ire be for establishment democrats who refused to stop supporting a genocide? They could’ve done that, you know. This might blow your fucking mind but democrats can actually do stuff. No one was holding Kamala secretly at gun point and forcing her to support genocide. She refused to stop and instead parroted the usual talking points of Israel’s “right to defend itself.” Shouldn’t that be the subject of your anger and frustration? Shouldn’t you be furious at the democratic establishment becoming more and more conservative as time goes on? Shouldn’t you be outraged at the way democrats persecute the progressive elements within their own political party? Instead of angry at the handful of people who tried to make their voices heard on the subject of literally funding and arming genociders?
Like what the fuck do you think political change within the democratic party looks like? Do you think that defending the establishment from anything and everything is how you get them to change? As each successive administration comes and goes the democrats have moved further and further to the right. They are well into conservative territory ideologically, and that should be immediately obvious to anyone paying attention. Gavin Newsom outright supported wild transphobia like forcing trans women into men’s prisons just last week. And he’s not the only one who’s done this. The democratic party is not a party of progressives. They only support minorities until they feel it inconveniences them in any way.
Rule 2: Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
You got a temp ban for calling people children, stupid/delusional and trolls. We can all see your moderation history by going in the menu under the three dots.
Oh I see you told people to die just a month ago. Hope you get well soon.
I just do not think that is representative of the larger push back against Kamala’s campaign for supporting further Palestinian genocide. The majority of people who fell into this camp of refusing to vote for her were Palestinians. They had every right not to vote for someone who openly said she would continue to fund and arm the people killing their families and utterly destroying their communities. The correct thing was always for the Democrats to support human rights globally, to stand firmly against colonialism and stand with the Palestinians. They refused to do that. It’s honestly incredibly gross to find fault with people refusing to politically support people who are explicitly involved in the destruction of their people.
Stop punching down. Punch someone who actually deserves it for once. The democratic party does not have to be the conservative genocide supporting party against the fascist aspirational genociders party. Thats what they are now. They are far more committed to furthering the neo-liberal ideals of “western enterprise” and “american power” than they are committed to doing what is right for their own citizens or people across the world. They will do small gestures of support for minority rights and anti-colonialism but when push comes to shove if it means sacrificing their ruling class wealthy benefactors they will refuse. This isn’t going to change by fighting other working class people. It isn’t going to change by punching down.
Please point out in my comment where I said there cote would have flipped the election results, also please note you and others stated alot as evidence for these can be found that the majority just did not vote in protest because of this issue. But I won’t accept that there is zero that actually did vote for Trump for this issue that is mathematically improbable.
People write of the non-voters or the ones (I will accept that these are very small amount) as a non-issue to focus on. But for me even understanding all facets of why they did what they did in light of how it’s currently panning out is to me a better understanding to find out what really went/going on in relation to people and this issue within their decision making particularly because there was a chance it could have been remotely better then what is occurring right now.
I’m not saying that not even a single person voted for Trump, mistakenly believing his human rights policies to be better. I am saying that is an extreme outlier. The majority of those refusing to vote for Kamala Harris in relation to the ongoing Palestinian genocide were Palestinians.
Just reading the last paragraph really shows how separated you are from the concept of genocide. The amount of death and destruction wrought while Biden was president is unlike anything that had happened there before the Nakba. The equivalent of several nuclear bombs. The total devastation of their entire culture. They pleaded with the Biden administration for a full year. They protested around the world. Biden and Harris did nothing. Harris indicated she was going to continue the Biden admin’s policy agenda with Israel. You were asking them to vote for people who openly said they’d arm and fund a regime that is decimating their communities, murdering their families, raping their people, and destroying their homeland. This ALL happened under Biden, and Harris openly refused to commit to changing that.
Versus the current situation. I still stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome for Palestine under the alternative administration then the current one who deports people for speaking out against it.
I am not separated by anything that is occurring in Palestine or the lack of humanity surrounding the issue, it’s a tragedy and one that is likely to repeat if we don’t understand what went wrong with people and how they interpreted not only the parties but the whole situation leading up to the election. One campaign was very authoritarian in their messaging and the other simply said no. Under which administration do you think there would have been a better chance to have had applied more pressure and possibly create a change in their stance towards this issue?
Biden sat back and did nothing for over a year while Israel committed genocide. He didn’t have to do that. Why do you talk like he had no choice? Why do you talk like Kamala had no choice? Why are you occupying your time and your anger directing it at Palestinians who wouldn’t vote for somebody funding and arming a state that is massacring them, tearing down their communities and literally raping them?
Would you vote for someone destroying your community? Would you vote for someone committing genocide against your people? Would you have the jews of France in the 30s vote for a party that gave the Nazis guns and money?
This is what I’m saying by you are entirely separated from it. You only see the genocide as a political event that you can interpret to provide material and ideological support to the democratic party. You’re entirely blind to the reality that it was a global series of events supported, protected, enabled, and perpetrated by the United States government under Joe Biden.
It’s over, Harris fucking lost. The democratic party has failed. It’s done. You can’t take it back. You are now presented with what to do now. You have chosen to spend your time lecturing Palestinians on why they should vote for the party paying the state that’s murdering and raping them. Instead of holding democrats accountable for their crimes. Instead of demanding a party that stands firm on human rights and refuses to partake in any genocide anywhere. Instead of demanding change, you are here bitching about Palestinians who won’t provide political votes to a party that engaged in over a year of open support for and defense of Palestinian genocide.
You are entirely separated from it. It’s just something that happened somewhere else to someone else. It’s just an inconvenience to you that it exists at all. It’s biggest impact on your life was how many votes your political party got. You’re entirely blind and ignorant towards the millions of people who’s lives were destroyed beyond recognition by Israel. No, your main focus is on the few people who wouldn’t vote for your political party on account of that party’s support and endorsement of genocide.
Yes, because I stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome under a Democratic administration after applying more pressure then the current fascist one. Thank you for your time but it appears you are just going around in circles at this point with your view.
How is my opinion dishonest, considering the current fascist regime is deporting people. Whereas under Biden there was still a chance to protest. Which one would you think then allowed an environment for further protest to then allow for possible change in how the US handled or currently handling the situation?
This may surprise you but Lemmy isn’t the whole world. Even excluding the many users who arent American, the users who are do not number such a large percentage as to influence the outcome of an election.
The strawmen keep getting bigger and bigger in these threads. Pretty soon they will be so big we will be able to host burning man. While I am sure said voters do exist, they were not the millions of votes that the democrats needed.
It would be incredible if democrats got rid of First-past-the-post boring in the blue states they control so people could be free to vote outside the two party system with no spoiler effect. But capitalists hate competition.
As we can see by democratic inaction on reforming the voting system at the state level, democrats want to continue the hostage situation they present in every election. This is not democracy. Forcing people to vote for your preference will never be democracy. Thus the voting system flaws must be treated like the crisis that it is.
We must be pushing for electoral reform in every state, but why is it so difficult to get the supposed democracy advocates in the democratic party to start moving towards making these critical reforms happen in states they control?
Feel free to make excuses for the democrats. Feel free to attack me all you want. State level rlectoral reform will continue to be the nonviolent way out of this mess. I hope yall come around, even if it probably is to late.
You falsely assume that I even considered these people having the overall numbers to even flip the election results, my comment is based on seeing how they feel about their decision now considering they were quite vocal about not voting for Kamala because she was a warhawk and therefore voted for a supposed “better”.
The rest of your point has nothing to do with the article nor my point. So please ensure keep to the topic on hand.
I like how the people that a year ago were telling you to shut up about Palestine because it was hurting Biden are now trying to guilt trip you about Palestine
I love when people try to make some type of comparison between one fascist foreign policy party and another like one is better.
This is American foreign policy. It is bipartisan. The only difference between Biden and Trump on Israel is the aesthetics.
There is absolutely no reason to guilt anyone for not voting for the administration that was currently supporting a genocide or one that voted for the one that would support one in the future. US foreign policy is bipartisan. The US was always going to abandon Ukraine and it will always support Israel. If you think that one would be different then you haven’t read any history on US foreign policy.
The fact you even thought to call both policies fascist is incredible to me.
One side at least attempted to apply pressure. Was it enough and more should have been done I will not argue with that. But no way in shape or form is the current option better when there was better chance of something happening under the other option given enough pressure.
Plenty of reason to understand these people better so that messaging can be refined for the future, if they choose to feel guilt over their action or inaction because of this then good. Because look at whats happening and if this was their sole reason for withholding or voting another way then yeah I say they need to feel guilt so they can learn themselves how to better use their power to create change.
Uh…I’m sorry to tell you, but republicans and Trump won. Everything that is happening right now is happening under republican rule. Sitting in your own piss abd blaming others don’t work anymore!
Do you realize that Gaza has been completely flattened under Kamala Harris? Agent Orange is now bombing the ruins of Genocide Joe. Kamala would be doing the exact same thing as Donald Trump.
Donald Trump says a lot of things. What he did was get them two months of relative peace. That would not have happened under Kamala, there would be no intermission to “resume” bombing from, there would just still be bombing. If Kamala wanted those voters then she should have broke from Biden’s support of Israel, which she did not do and is not how you get a ceasefire done with Israel. No, what she said is that we would have the “most lethal military” in the face of Palestinians her campaign blocked from speaking at the DNC. Biden said he had red lines, but never did anything when Israel crossed them.
That is how democracy works, you have to earn votes. “Vote for me or else” is not a fucking popular platform for what should be very obvious reasons.
Is it really more important to you to attack these voters and hold back the discourse, over 4 months after the election, as your government is breaking every rule in the book and your party is playing right along with it? The election result is not going to change no matter how many people you throw under the bus for it. These are the cards you were dealt, it’s time to move on and play spades.
It must feel empowering to only hold positions that are impossible to prove or disprove. Super brave.
I wouldn’t know, maybe you can tell me more about it?
Meanwhile, anyone living in the real world that is actually paying attention knows that what is happening now (in the US and in Gaza) is not normal and is not what any Democratic President would be doing.
This is not an honest response to any of the arguments I made.
You are not a serious person. I will not be engaging further; I have organizing to do that does not involve scapegoating people who will be hurt by this administration or living in alternate realities where everyone unquestioningly does what I want them to do because I said so.
Biden was pressuring Israel to act but also to do so with civilians in mind and to allow humanitarian efforts or risk getting cut off from military aid. Also the line that Kamala most probably would have towed as well. This is for those familiar with global politics is expected between long standing allies ( something Trump is currently failing at every stage currently). Meanwhile Orange Musolini has basically said “Have at it, also that spot there would be great for a hotel”. So I fail to see how you could even compare the two. But sure I guess if you happened to fail to grasp the nuance in global politics.
Unless you happened to have another point to make that is more substantive then “bOth PaRtIeS”.
No, they didn’t apply any genuine pressure, just empty rhetoric while continuing to provide billions worth of weapons unconditionally while Netanyahu ignored every “red line” with zero consequences. Biden is a self-proclamed Zionist, he had no issue with the genocide. All the empty rhetoric was just theater
The rhetoric coming out of the White House, when it has been focused on peace or restraint, rather than continuous war, has been undercut at every turn by its actions. The constant supply of weapons — $17.9 billion of bullets, bombs, shells, and other military aid in the past year — has allowed Israel to keep waging its war on Gaza, and in recent weeks, expand that war to Lebanon and threaten to escalate its conflict with Iran. Despite documentation of U.S. weapons being used in probable war crimes, and credible allegations that Israel is committing genocide in its war on Gaza, the bombs have continued to flow.
Did Biden deport anyone protesting this? If the answer is no then historically speaking protests while being allowed have always been a way to apply pressure for change. I won’t argue that they definitely could have done alot more but I won’t accept that both parties are same when at least one of them would have still allowed a way to potentially have changed their stance when the other just deports them because they are fascists.
Reduce the influence of parties by passing state level electoral reform. Replace of First-past-the-post voting, use a voting system that let’s voters transfer their vote if their first pick didn’t win. Give 3rd parties the opportunity to participate without a spoiler effect.
Hold up, let me get this straight: the people who didn’t vote for Harris caused the genocide that was already going on in Gaza, because Trump was elected. But also when Biden was president there was nothing he could have possibly done to stop the genocide that was happening in Gaza?
I voted for Biden and Harris and am one of the people being fucked over by Trump, and that’s still not enough. I have to tongue the asshole of every elected blue freak that is champing at the bit to throw people like me under the bus as soon as it’s expedient.
I voted blue in a swing state, blue loses anyway sadly. Then theres people going “I hope they make a big giant hotel and golf course now.” Or “should I call ICE on my neighbor?” it’s exhausting.
I would love to come across one of the voters that voted for the orange fascist because they thought Kamala would be worse for the Palestines somewhere in the wild. It would be incredible to see if they still feel strongly about it now.
Most just abstained, voters who actually switched sides don’t exist imo. If you voted trump last election, you never would have voted kamala even if she actually tried to win.
That being said, I can’t really blame people for drawing the line at genocide of all things. The dems thought they had an easy win so they decided to represent genocide instead of us, the voters. I still voted for them regardless but it felt altogether gross. It shouldn’t feel that way, they are supposed to be the good ones.
I don’t think we should condone the behavior by pivoting the blame to voters, who are just trying to be heard since clearly the democratic party has stopped listening.
What about all of the AOC/Trump voters? People are really fucking stupid here.
I didn’t vote for Trump but let’s not pretend that Harris was going to stop it as she didn’t distance herself from Biden on this issue. Biden had 15 months and he didn’t, not even symbolically at the UN choosing to veto ceasefire, vote against Palestinian right to self determination and continue sending Israel weapons.
The fuck you on about? Trump announced to the world that the intent is to remove all Palestinians, permanently, to build resorts.
When did Kamala openly say the genocide should be accelerated and made total?
I agree that Trump is worse overall, but Harris would have still continued what Biden was doing and would have allowed the genocide to continue. By the end of Biden’s term 80% of Gaza was already destroyed, over 40,000 killed and Blinken at least once suggested removing the Palestinians from Gaza to Egypt and Jordan on his meeting with Arab leaders. It was covered in Arabic media but you may have missed it. Trump didn’t come up with anything new, he is just more unabashed and crude about it.
I voted for Jill Stein by the way.
Now I am not saying that what Biden had done or what Kamala would have done would have been or was enough, but equating Trump with those two shows the lack of understanding of them trying to pressure a long time ally without completely acting to tear up that historical friendship between the two countries. Do you have a source for those numbers btw, a found few articles but most show way less then that so I am curious where you got those numbers.
You lost me at pressure. I recall one occasion where Biden bypassed Congress to send weapons to Israel. What’s your idea of pressure when the Biden administration vetoes ceasefire at the UN two or three times?
40,000 was the low-end estimate, other sources estimated a higher death count: Gaza: 64,000 deaths due to violence between October 2023 and June 2024, analysis suggests
Gaza war death toll could be significantly higher, researchers say
Further protests and continued outcry, better to chance to have had a change in the stance under a democratic administration. Could you tell me under the current administration one if there is a good chance of being arrested or deported by simply protesting and voicing support for the Palestinians?
Didn’t student protesters get arrested and shot at with rubber bullets under Biden?
May 2024 Columbia University faculty ‘horrified’ by mass arrests of student protesters
May 2024 Police appear to fire rubber bullets at UCLA protesters
Yeah a few but you are missing the deportation part which is the stark difference between the two administrations.
If the Democratic Party was willing to ignore the demands and protests of their own voter base, at the cost of their votes, during the most critical election against overt Fascism, why would they be willing to listen after? They had the opportunity to listen to the protests and demands of their constituents and act accordingly, an opportunity that would have vastly improved their chances of winning the election, but chose not too.
Thousands of pro-palestinian protestors were arrested under Biden. Let’s not pretend Trump is of course worse in both of these aspects, but we don’t have to ignore how Biden set the stage. The bills to legally brand pro-palestinian protestors as anti-semitic and pull tax exempt status for organizations like JVP for being “pro-terrorism” without evidence were also started under and supported by Biden. The Democratic Campaign was by no means a genuine opposition. I still voted for them for the same reasons I’m sure you did, but still.
Exactly, I am not saying the democratic party was great at it. My point is the protests were still allowed to happen though as in my mind arrests essentially still allowed protests to occur, deportations though are a different matter. You ask any proper activist about how many times they have been arrested for protesting, they typically wear it like a badge of honour. Deportation though is another matter. So I still stand firm that there would have been a greater chance for a better outcome under a Democratic administration.
Your brain is fucking mush.
Post about israel stating they will exterminate Palestinians
You: it’s because of leftists and muslims and communists and santa maybe batman too.
Way to subtly change the subject and optics. Why don’t you focus on the fact that the United States is currently aiding and supporting a genocide that has been unfolding for the last 70 years? I’m not american and I would have voted for Harris if I was one, but you are disgraceful for using minorities like tokens you can use and throw as you please, I’m quite certain that even if all of them voted for Harris, trump would still have been elected due to your f***** up gerrymandering policy. Putting the blame on hundreds of thousands and not on the millions of apolitical voters is MAGA level nonsense.
Please point out where in my post I said that their vote would have even caused a flip in the election results, there was a group that withheld their vote in protest (not the ones that simply did not vote). So I will say there is no evidence I can produce that they voted for Trump, but the chance of none existing is not zero either. So yes I would like to talk to one of those voters or non-voters in protest to better understand why they initially thought a withholding of their vote in the first place when the worse option was clearly the other option should the election go one way in light of the current votes.
Understanding what went wrong at all levels, and those protesting and withholding their votes was part of that issue. So cannot and should not be ignored if we are to learn from this for the future.
I’m sorry but in this context, under this specific post, you do not seem genuine or honest from my POV, if you are truly interested in my opinion you will find it in this thread.
What else is there to say if not than the democrats have pushed for the ostracism of their own base to pander to their donors, failed to reach a majority of the population due to a baseless political program…?
Keep on poking, acting all virtuous, and generalizing the minority yet most activist part of your voter base… I mean wake me up when the democrats do the next protest, I wouldn’t want to miss such a rare occurrence, and oh my… The cardboard are so creative…
Edit: If your first instinct about Israel officially announcing they will ethnically cleanse people was to ask a non question about why 1% of the american may have withhold their vote because of the Palestinian Genocide… Yet not considering Roe vs Wades, the hundreds of massacres sponsored by the US, the non action against the corrupted media owned by American Oligarchs and the corrupted and criminal enterprise which is the MAGA Movement than what went wrong in your thought process…
The only real difference is Harris would have voiced disapproval rather than approval. Netanyahu seems pretty adamant about following this course. I doubt any conservative president would be able to stop it.
I have no idea what you’re on about vis a vis voted for Trump believing he’d be better for Palestine. A minority people refused to vote Kamala because of her open support of genocide, but that doesn’t mean they voted for Trump.
In either case, why is it their fault and not the fault of the democratic establishment exactly? Shouldn’t your ire be for establishment democrats who refused to stop supporting a genocide? They could’ve done that, you know. This might blow your fucking mind but democrats can actually do stuff. No one was holding Kamala secretly at gun point and forcing her to support genocide. She refused to stop and instead parroted the usual talking points of Israel’s “right to defend itself.” Shouldn’t that be the subject of your anger and frustration? Shouldn’t you be furious at the democratic establishment becoming more and more conservative as time goes on? Shouldn’t you be outraged at the way democrats persecute the progressive elements within their own political party? Instead of angry at the handful of people who tried to make their voices heard on the subject of literally funding and arming genociders?
Like what the fuck do you think political change within the democratic party looks like? Do you think that defending the establishment from anything and everything is how you get them to change? As each successive administration comes and goes the democrats have moved further and further to the right. They are well into conservative territory ideologically, and that should be immediately obvious to anyone paying attention. Gavin Newsom outright supported wild transphobia like forcing trans women into men’s prisons just last week. And he’s not the only one who’s done this. The democratic party is not a party of progressives. They only support minorities until they feel it inconveniences them in any way.
Deep down the blue conservatives understand that the democrats cannot change because that would upset the donors for their billion dollar campaigns.
Removed by mod
Rule 2: Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
You got a temp ban for calling people children, stupid/delusional and trolls. We can all see your moderation history by going in the menu under the three dots.
Oh I see you told people to die just a month ago. Hope you get well soon.
Removed by mod
I just do not think that is representative of the larger push back against Kamala’s campaign for supporting further Palestinian genocide. The majority of people who fell into this camp of refusing to vote for her were Palestinians. They had every right not to vote for someone who openly said she would continue to fund and arm the people killing their families and utterly destroying their communities. The correct thing was always for the Democrats to support human rights globally, to stand firmly against colonialism and stand with the Palestinians. They refused to do that. It’s honestly incredibly gross to find fault with people refusing to politically support people who are explicitly involved in the destruction of their people.
Stop punching down. Punch someone who actually deserves it for once. The democratic party does not have to be the conservative genocide supporting party against the fascist aspirational genociders party. Thats what they are now. They are far more committed to furthering the neo-liberal ideals of “western enterprise” and “american power” than they are committed to doing what is right for their own citizens or people across the world. They will do small gestures of support for minority rights and anti-colonialism but when push comes to shove if it means sacrificing their ruling class wealthy benefactors they will refuse. This isn’t going to change by fighting other working class people. It isn’t going to change by punching down.
Please point out in my comment where I said there cote would have flipped the election results, also please note you and others stated alot as evidence for these can be found that the majority just did not vote in protest because of this issue. But I won’t accept that there is zero that actually did vote for Trump for this issue that is mathematically improbable.
People write of the non-voters or the ones (I will accept that these are very small amount) as a non-issue to focus on. But for me even understanding all facets of why they did what they did in light of how it’s currently panning out is to me a better understanding to find out what really went/going on in relation to people and this issue within their decision making particularly because there was a chance it could have been remotely better then what is occurring right now.
I’m not saying that not even a single person voted for Trump, mistakenly believing his human rights policies to be better. I am saying that is an extreme outlier. The majority of those refusing to vote for Kamala Harris in relation to the ongoing Palestinian genocide were Palestinians.
Just reading the last paragraph really shows how separated you are from the concept of genocide. The amount of death and destruction wrought while Biden was president is unlike anything that had happened there before the Nakba. The equivalent of several nuclear bombs. The total devastation of their entire culture. They pleaded with the Biden administration for a full year. They protested around the world. Biden and Harris did nothing. Harris indicated she was going to continue the Biden admin’s policy agenda with Israel. You were asking them to vote for people who openly said they’d arm and fund a regime that is decimating their communities, murdering their families, raping their people, and destroying their homeland. This ALL happened under Biden, and Harris openly refused to commit to changing that.
Versus the current situation. I still stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome for Palestine under the alternative administration then the current one who deports people for speaking out against it.
I am not separated by anything that is occurring in Palestine or the lack of humanity surrounding the issue, it’s a tragedy and one that is likely to repeat if we don’t understand what went wrong with people and how they interpreted not only the parties but the whole situation leading up to the election. One campaign was very authoritarian in their messaging and the other simply said no. Under which administration do you think there would have been a better chance to have had applied more pressure and possibly create a change in their stance towards this issue?
Biden sat back and did nothing for over a year while Israel committed genocide. He didn’t have to do that. Why do you talk like he had no choice? Why do you talk like Kamala had no choice? Why are you occupying your time and your anger directing it at Palestinians who wouldn’t vote for somebody funding and arming a state that is massacring them, tearing down their communities and literally raping them?
Would you vote for someone destroying your community? Would you vote for someone committing genocide against your people? Would you have the jews of France in the 30s vote for a party that gave the Nazis guns and money?
This is what I’m saying by you are entirely separated from it. You only see the genocide as a political event that you can interpret to provide material and ideological support to the democratic party. You’re entirely blind to the reality that it was a global series of events supported, protected, enabled, and perpetrated by the United States government under Joe Biden.
It’s over, Harris fucking lost. The democratic party has failed. It’s done. You can’t take it back. You are now presented with what to do now. You have chosen to spend your time lecturing Palestinians on why they should vote for the party paying the state that’s murdering and raping them. Instead of holding democrats accountable for their crimes. Instead of demanding a party that stands firm on human rights and refuses to partake in any genocide anywhere. Instead of demanding change, you are here bitching about Palestinians who won’t provide political votes to a party that engaged in over a year of open support for and defense of Palestinian genocide.
You are entirely separated from it. It’s just something that happened somewhere else to someone else. It’s just an inconvenience to you that it exists at all. It’s biggest impact on your life was how many votes your political party got. You’re entirely blind and ignorant towards the millions of people who’s lives were destroyed beyond recognition by Israel. No, your main focus is on the few people who wouldn’t vote for your political party on account of that party’s support and endorsement of genocide.
Yes, because I stand firm in my belief that there was a better chance to have had a better outcome under a Democratic administration after applying more pressure then the current fascist one. Thank you for your time but it appears you are just going around in circles at this point with your view.
The dishonesty you are displaying throughout this thread is truly worrying…
How is my opinion dishonest, considering the current fascist regime is deporting people. Whereas under Biden there was still a chance to protest. Which one would you think then allowed an environment for further protest to then allow for possible change in how the US handled or currently handling the situation?
6 months up to the election there were posts on Lemmy every single day with people saying they were going to protest vote for Trump because of Gaza.
This may surprise you but Lemmy isn’t the whole world. Even excluding the many users who arent American, the users who are do not number such a large percentage as to influence the outcome of an election.
Never said it did. Never even said they were American. You’re original comment made it seem like people like this didn’t exist at all.
The strawmen keep getting bigger and bigger in these threads. Pretty soon they will be so big we will be able to host burning man. While I am sure said voters do exist, they were not the millions of votes that the democrats needed.
It would be incredible if democrats got rid of First-past-the-post boring in the blue states they control so people could be free to vote outside the two party system with no spoiler effect. But capitalists hate competition.
As we can see by democratic inaction on reforming the voting system at the state level, democrats want to continue the hostage situation they present in every election. This is not democracy. Forcing people to vote for your preference will never be democracy. Thus the voting system flaws must be treated like the crisis that it is.
We must be pushing for electoral reform in every state, but why is it so difficult to get the supposed democracy advocates in the democratic party to start moving towards making these critical reforms happen in states they control?
Feel free to make excuses for the democrats. Feel free to attack me all you want. State level rlectoral reform will continue to be the nonviolent way out of this mess. I hope yall come around, even if it probably is to late.
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
STAR voting
Alternative vote
Ranked Choice voting
Range Voting
Single Transferable Vote
Mixed Member Proportional representation
You falsely assume that I even considered these people having the overall numbers to even flip the election results, my comment is based on seeing how they feel about their decision now considering they were quite vocal about not voting for Kamala because she was a warhawk and therefore voted for a supposed “better”.
The rest of your point has nothing to do with the article nor my point. So please ensure keep to the topic on hand.
Anything but talk about the actual post… smh
I would love to meet the people that thought they could use even worse genocide to excuse their own genocide.
“shes not good,”" i dont like her" or she dint make useful arguments in her campaign"-trump voters codewords for sexist reason they dint vote for her.
I like how the people that a year ago were telling you to shut up about Palestine because it was hurting Biden are now trying to guilt trip you about Palestine
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I love when people try to make some type of comparison between one fascist foreign policy party and another like one is better.
This is American foreign policy. It is bipartisan. The only difference between Biden and Trump on Israel is the aesthetics.
There is absolutely no reason to guilt anyone for not voting for the administration that was currently supporting a genocide or one that voted for the one that would support one in the future. US foreign policy is bipartisan. The US was always going to abandon Ukraine and it will always support Israel. If you think that one would be different then you haven’t read any history on US foreign policy.
The fact you even thought to call both policies fascist is incredible to me.
One side at least attempted to apply pressure. Was it enough and more should have been done I will not argue with that. But no way in shape or form is the current option better when there was better chance of something happening under the other option given enough pressure.
Plenty of reason to understand these people better so that messaging can be refined for the future, if they choose to feel guilt over their action or inaction because of this then good. Because look at whats happening and if this was their sole reason for withholding or voting another way then yeah I say they need to feel guilt so they can learn themselves how to better use their power to create change.
Internet though guy over here, lol.
Uh…I’m sorry to tell you, but republicans and Trump won. Everything that is happening right now is happening under republican rule. Sitting in your own piss abd blaming others don’t work anymore!
Do you realize that Gaza has been completely flattened under Kamala Harris? Agent Orange is now bombing the ruins of Genocide Joe. Kamala would be doing the exact same thing as Donald Trump.
Yes, the vice president controls the military. For sure, the military of another country. The tie vote for the senate, yeah ok.
Where was the Palestinian on stage at the DNC?
Huh. Didn’t realize Harris got elected. Someone should tell orangeboi.
Seriously dude: your first sentence is fully nonsense.
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Is building a golf course your red line, not genocide?
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Donald Trump says a lot of things. What he did was get them two months of relative peace. That would not have happened under Kamala, there would be no intermission to “resume” bombing from, there would just still be bombing. If Kamala wanted those voters then she should have broke from Biden’s support of Israel, which she did not do and is not how you get a ceasefire done with Israel. No, what she said is that we would have the “most lethal military” in the face of Palestinians her campaign blocked from speaking at the DNC. Biden said he had red lines, but never did anything when Israel crossed them.
That is how democracy works, you have to earn votes. “Vote for me or else” is not a fucking popular platform for what should be very obvious reasons.
Is it really more important to you to attack these voters and hold back the discourse, over 4 months after the election, as your government is breaking every rule in the book and your party is playing right along with it? The election result is not going to change no matter how many people you throw under the bus for it. These are the cards you were dealt, it’s time to move on and play spades.
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I wouldn’t know, maybe you can tell me more about it?
This is not an honest response to any of the arguments I made.
You are not a serious person. I will not be engaging further; I have organizing to do that does not involve scapegoating people who will be hurt by this administration or living in alternate realities where everyone unquestioningly does what I want them to do because I said so.
And yet it’s what happened under them…
When was that “under Kamala”? Is it in this room with us right now?
I might have bad news for you
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Were you not here for the last year of Biden’s presidency or something?
Selling lgbt people, ethnic minorities, immigrants, poor people dependent on social programs only to gain… nothing. What a deal…
First they came for the Palestinians. And you did not speak out because you are not a Palestinian.
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so edgy
ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
edit: totally not edgy
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My sincere apologies mr causality for implying you were edgy, I know now that my words about you being edgy could be upsetting, I take them back.
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Biden was pressuring Israel to act but also to do so with civilians in mind and to allow humanitarian efforts or risk getting cut off from military aid. Also the line that Kamala most probably would have towed as well. This is for those familiar with global politics is expected between long standing allies ( something Trump is currently failing at every stage currently). Meanwhile Orange Musolini has basically said “Have at it, also that spot there would be great for a hotel”. So I fail to see how you could even compare the two. But sure I guess if you happened to fail to grasp the nuance in global politics.
Unless you happened to have another point to make that is more substantive then “bOth PaRtIeS”.
No, they didn’t apply any genuine pressure, just empty rhetoric while continuing to provide billions worth of weapons unconditionally while Netanyahu ignored every “red line” with zero consequences. Biden is a self-proclamed Zionist, he had no issue with the genocide. All the empty rhetoric was just theater
Year of Empty Rhetoric From the White House on Israel’s Wars
Did Biden deport anyone protesting this? If the answer is no then historically speaking protests while being allowed have always been a way to apply pressure for change. I won’t argue that they definitely could have done alot more but I won’t accept that both parties are same when at least one of them would have still allowed a way to potentially have changed their stance when the other just deports them because they are fascists.
No deportations of protesters under Biden, only the regular kind, but he was also implementing Project Esther
Reduce the influence of parties by passing state level electoral reform. Replace of First-past-the-post voting, use a voting system that let’s voters transfer their vote if their first pick didn’t win. Give 3rd parties the opportunity to participate without a spoiler effect.
You do support democracy right?
May I ask what you wrote has to do with anything about the article or what I wrote?
idiot
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Hold up, let me get this straight: the people who didn’t vote for Harris caused the genocide that was already going on in Gaza, because Trump was elected. But also when Biden was president there was nothing he could have possibly done to stop the genocide that was happening in Gaza?
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Oops, guess I wasn’t supposed to ask that one.
I voted for Biden and Harris and am one of the people being fucked over by Trump, and that’s still not enough. I have to tongue the asshole of every elected blue freak that is champing at the bit to throw people like me under the bus as soon as it’s expedient.
I voted blue in a swing state, blue loses anyway sadly. Then theres people going “I hope they make a big giant hotel and golf course now.” Or “should I call ICE on my neighbor?” it’s exhausting.
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